Monday, March 14, 2011
Discussion Post: Chapters 20-23
For Tuesday, choose a passage from the book, dialogue or event that you found interesting and discuss what you felt to be interesting or insightful about the passage. If possible, relate it to the themes and events of the book thus far and discuss its impact on the novel, or expound on its relevance to Ilium society and/or our society today. (When discussing the particular passage, provide either a quote, or chapter and page number.)
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“Used to be there a lot of damn fool things a dumb bastard could do to be great, but the machines fixed that. You know, used to be you could go to sea on a big clipper ship or a fishing ship and be a big hero in a storm. Or maybe you could be a pioneer and go out west and lead the people and make trails and chase away Indians and all that. Or you could be a cowboy, or all kinds of dangerous things, and still be a dumb bastard.”
ReplyDelete-Homer Bigley (barber), Chapter 20 page 207
I found this passage particularly interesting because it really reflects the way that America has developed into modern society. Throughout time, we progressed as a species based on discovery through a combination of experimentation and danger. When any new country was founded, the first thing people would do was to go and explore the land (and after that, outer space). That idealism is the very foundation of America. We still continue to be drawn to the unknown because learning about it and being engaged in new information gives us a sense of purpose and achievement. Unfortunately, the problem now is that only a few people have the opportunity to do so: those with the technology. This statement applies to both Ilium and modern society. Today, only selected individuals innovate and create new technology. Ilium illustrates this drive to the extreme: machines have made society so efficient, people who do not work with machines are no longer engaged enough to feel important in society. Overall, this passage really illustrates how society can exclude people to the point where they become passive and powerless.
"Now the machines take all the dangerous jobs, and the dumb bastards just get tucked away in big bunches of prefabs that look like the end of a game of Monopoly, or in barracks, and there's nothing for them to do but set there and kind of hope for a big fire where maybe they can run into a burning building in front of everybody and run out with a baby in their arms."
ReplyDeleteChapter 20 Pg: 207
This passage reflects how America is changing daily. Machines are taking over individuals jobs and leaving people without jobs.I thought it was interesting when he said the only way people can get noticed is if they save somebody from a burning building. In today's society people get noticed in different ways. If its not from the type of work they do its from things invented. This passage just basically states that people need to focus more on hard working people and their jobs other than machines.
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ReplyDelete“I quit.” Paul said
ReplyDeleteChapter 22, page 231
Alas we see that Paul has finally given up the big engineer job. But before he said that Doctor Gelhorne actually ended up laying him off. I found this to be interesting because even though Paul needed up getting laid off before he said I quit, he ended up saying it anyways. It’s like an understatement saying ‘you know what fire me; I didn’t want the job anyways.’ Further down into the chapter Paul goes to saloon and is told that he cannot be served anymore since he is no longer a resident at the Meadows. I find it quiet sad that one minute he’s this powerful, high class respectable person and the next he’s just another dead weight like the Reeks and Wrecks. Is this the end for Paul or a new beginning? I guess will have to wait and see.
“Paul considered the notion of Doctor Gelhorne’s being the last of a race, and decided it was true. He had got to the top through a disorderly route that the personnel machines would never tolerate” Ch 22 p.218 (in my edition).
ReplyDeleteI thought this was telling of two things. First, that Dr. Gelhorne had risen to his position prior to the current state of affairs, therefore solidifying suggestions throughout the book of how new this social reconstruction is. Second, that he, with no education, degree, or any of the things held dear in this society, was able to make it to the top position and then close all doors to the same path behind him. As director of nearly everything, he has ensured that society close off all outlets for promotion to those who, like he himself, lacked the now required levels of education to succeed. He could not have gone anywhere but to the dejected "Reeks and Wrecks" in the world he has helped to create and master.
"A lump grew in his throat, and he couldn't do anything about it. Doctor Paul Proteus was saying goodbye forever to home."
ReplyDeleteChapter 23
He is finally getting what he has wanted, he is saying goodbye to a life that really didn't suit him. But when he sits in the plane and watches as they leave the island he gets a feeling of saddness. I don't believe this is because he regrets his leaving, but because he is flying off into the unknown. He is leaving all he has ever known and jumping right into something different. Even though Paul didn't like his job and his life it was still his life for years and now he was at a loss. I believe this provided him with a look into what the men working at the plant felt when they were all let go. Not many people love their jobs, but its a source of income so they do it. Then one day you wake up and all of that stock that you put in yourself is gone and regardless of whether you liked it or not you feel that loss of identity.
"Used to be sort of high and mighty, sort of priests, those doctors and lawyers and all, but they're beginning to look more and more like mechanics. Dentists are holding up pretty good, though. They're the exception that proves the rule, I say. And barbering---one of the oldest professions on earth, incidentally--has held up better than all the rest. Machines seperated the men from the boys, you might say" (Ch. 20 p. 205).
ReplyDeleteI found this passage interesting because it happened to correlate with my presentation. We see that there's still areas in Ilium that aren't completely mechanized. In this world where machines take over the majority of jobs for men, we can see that there are few exceptions. This is important because it shows that man is still in power. These jobs that are still important in this society plays a key role in seeing whether or not man will stay in control. Man is still important for the city to progress.
"Now they say barbering isn't a profession, but you take the other professions that got so big for their breeches since the Middle Ages and look down on barbering. You take medicine, you take the law. Machinery!" pg 176
ReplyDeleteI found this passage important because within the society they make you feel as though your trait is not a profession, but more so a hobby. If you are not a doctor, lawyer, or a engineer you lack a profession when in reality being a barber takes patience and skill. This is very common in our society today because we have more people aspiring to become dancers, singers, rappers, and things like that but are not taken as serious as a doctor or lawyer because they did not go through all of the education in some cases.
"Farm, eh?" Harrison clucked his tongue reflectively. "Farm. Sounds wonderful. I've thought of that: up in the morning with the sun; working out there with your hands in the earth, just you and nature...." (P. 237)
ReplyDeleteThis passage is indicative of the fact that not just Paul Proteus is dissatisfied with his life. Not just Paul, not just those who are given unfortunate lives under the system want more out of life. Ed Harrison admits here that the idea of having a farm has occurred to him before. How many other engineers are not satisfied but are too afraid to speak up? This represents the overall decline in true LIFE in this world of machines.
"I don't want to know," said Kroner. "I want to remember this scene and think of him as a little bit of all of us."
ReplyDelete"You're talking poetry," said the Old Man. "That's good, that's good."
I find this passage particularly interesting because it seems to me to represent the classic battle between the arts and science. For ages, there have been 2 major types of people in the world, artists and scientists. Usually what happens is people tend to forget about the importance of the arts and stick to the practicality that science offers, which is why there was and to some degree is a large movement in schools to push arts education. In this highly scientific, highly technological world, there is little if any room for the arts, so things such as poetry have been lost in the transition from man to machine. Here, when the high powers of the machine world are faced with a situation that a machine cannot be made to fix, he speaks in poetry, as if to soothe his soul with verse, to which the Old Man, representing the old ways, replies, that's good, that's good. This shows me that the arts have not been completely lost this could possibly be a foreshadowing of the loss of dominance of machines because there really are situations that you can't build machines to deal with.
"Under it, we've become rich beyond the wildest dreams of the past! Civilization has reached the dizziest heights of all time!" pg 218
ReplyDeleteThis is always the reasoning the engineers give for machines taking over everything. Now everyone can be rich, and have nice things. I find it odd that in the novel these people are forgetting the oldest saying 'money can't buy happiness'. This is why there is disconnect between the average people and the engineers; the engineers think everyone should be happy because they all have food and clothes and nice things. This reasoning makes it seem okay that most people have nothing to live for. The engineers think that the riches and efficiency of society are more important than being poor and having self-dignity. The average people though would rather have their self-dignity, and until the engineers realize this, the machine-run society will continue to be disheartening to the average person.
-Stephanie Tucker
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ReplyDelete“They had the man who invented the damn things on television the other night, and turns out he’s a barber hisself. Said he kept on worrying and worrying about somebody was going to invent a haircutting machine that’s put him out of business. And he’d have nightmares about it, and when he’d wake up from them, he’ tell hisself all the reasons why they couldn’t make a machine that’d do the job – you know, all the complicated motions a barber goes through. And then, in his next nightmare, he’d dream of a machine that did one of the jobs, like combing, and he’s see how it worked clear as a bell. And it was just a vicious circle. He’d dream. Then he’d tell hisself something the machine couldn’t do. Then he’d dream of a machine, and he’d see just how a machine could do what he’d said it couldn’t do. And on and on, until he’d dreamed up a whole machine that could cut hair like nobody’s business. And he sold his plans for a hundred thousand bucks and royalties, and I don’t guess he has to worry about anything any more.”
ReplyDeleteI found this passage to be interesting because it makes you wonder about the vicious cycle in this world of the book. Skilled professionals spend their days thinking that no machine could take their job and worry that someone might invent a machine that will take their job. And the odds are that a machine will be invented to take your job, so the only people who will actually get to benefit from a machine taking a skilled employees job is the skilled worker who first thinks up the machine and can live comfortably off of his one invention. This can be applied to the world we live in today where everyone is looking for their “big break” where they can have one big thing happen and then never have to work again. Everyone dreams of something happening or they make one big move and “boom” relaxation for the rest of my life. And that is exactly what many people strive for; actors, inventors, musicians, people who play the lottery they are all looking for that one big break so that they can make ton of money and live their life without worry.
“John, before the stars arose, the payroll for producing what I produce for you, for my boss, Mr. Averageman, ran to more than fifty-thousand dollars a week. Not a year, mind you, but a week! It looks to me like, John, like you, the consumer, are the big winner, not me.” This quote was spoken by the Young engineer in chapter 21 on page 217. I believe this to personally be a very interesting quote and one to which adds great value to the overall theme of the novel. I in this quote the engineer shares a little bit of history with John who thinks that he is making too much. This quote is interesting because it shows how different people can have two massively different perspectives on the same thing; where John thought that the engineer made far too much and felt like he was getting the short end of the stick, the engineer felt just the opposite. I also see this quote as holding great significance to the overall meaning of the novel because it shows how – in time – things (technology) are changed and advancements. This results in making it so that once very difficult, demanding jobs are no longer as work intensive, and the once heavy responsibilities of the worker are reduced, and with it their pay is reduced too. This can be bad because it takes the jobs and the wealth from the masses and puts it in the hands of smaller numbers. This, therefore, plays into the main theme of the novel which is that technology is reaching a point to which it is replacing (at least to a very large extent) the need for man, because the work can all be done via machinery that is quickly becoming self automated.
ReplyDelete-Andrew Spaedy
"Used to be sort of high and mighty, sort of priests, those doctors and lawyers and all, but they're beginning to look more and more like mechanics. Dentist are holding up pretty good, though. They're the exception that proves the rule, I say. And barbering- one of the oldest professions on earth, incidentally-has held up better than all the rest. Machines separated the men form the boys, you might say." Chapter 20 page 205
ReplyDeleteIts surprising how barbering was brought up. I've never really noticed that it's been around for so long. Earlier in the passage it said how doctors don't do anything because machines tell them what they should do for each problem depending on the person while lawyers depended on lie dectetors. The barber basically said how barbers could do what lawyers and doctors do but they couldn't do the same. The passage goes along with my paper proposal of the addiction. Technology is depended on so much that people can't survive without out it, physically or psychologically in the book and today. Doctors have beocome "mechanic" by letting the machines do the work but providing the personal experience. Life can only go one with machines but barbers arent valued because they dont seem as important.
"OLD MAN. (Looks perplexedly from the two men to the star and
ReplyDeleteback.) Hmmmm. Are you prepared to appeal the fate of this star
with reason rather than emotion? My duties require that I be the
sworn enemy of emotion."
This passage that starts with the Old Man as the "Sky Manager" and is one that I felt was important. The young englishman and the radical are debating whether or not to keep a star, the englishman saying it is beautiful and the radical saying it is bloody/black. Then the old man says this, which really encompasses the theme of the book, which is that emotion is not really a characteristic which people should have, if they are to deal with this machine-driven world. Just as the old man kept emotions out of the equation when deciding whether or not to keep the star, people in Vonnegut's society are not using emotion when they invent these new machines which take over many people's jobs. Just like the barber who invented the haircutting machine. Emotion in a this dystopian society is something that complicates things, so to be a more efficient and less hostile society, the authorities, or people in charge, must be void of emotion.
"These kids in the Army now, that's just a place to keep 'em off the streets and out of trouble, because there isn't anything else to so with them. And the only chance they'll ever get to be anybody is if there's a war. That's the only chance in the world they got of showing anybody they lived and died, and for something, by God"
ReplyDeleteHomer Bigley, Ch 20 Pg 207
Today we do not hide kids from the attention they need by putting them in the Army, they are more or less hidden by the technology we have today. Instead of going outside and making something of themselves they sit inside and play on the computer. It is also hard for a child to be something when they don't get the attention they need. Most parents and families do give enough attention to their kid it is the ones that don't, and you never know that child could have been a future all-star of some sort. But that is not the only thing this quote relates, today it also seems like not everyone realizes what our US troops actually do for us. We always look past that fact when we are home with our families on Chrismas. I think we support them now more than they ever have been but I feel we could do better at recognizing them.(Ms. Schulte, this is the "shortened" version of my past post which I talked to you about after class.)
"Doctor doesn't use his his head and education to figure out what's the matter with you. Machine's go over you- measure this, measure that." p.204
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stood out to me in this passage because in a respect, that is happening in the medical profession. Now, a lot of the very intricate surgical procedures are being executed by robots. Although the surgeon does watch over the operation, most of it, if not all is done by the robot. Also, people say that doctors don't really use their knowledge, that they can just look stuff up when making a diagnosis or they can ask another colleague which is also true but the doctor is there for a reason. If people thought that doctors were unnecessary, they would simply look up their illnesses on the internet and never have to set foot inside of a hospital again. However there is a part of everyone that has to go to the doctor in order to get the expert opinion because if something does go ignored, it could snowball into a larger problem.